Discussion:
Format of Irish telephone numbers
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Orson Kart
2005-11-30 14:05:34 UTC
Permalink
Hello

My TAPI enabled software formats the CLI number according to the prefix
(08x, 07x, 020x, 011x 01x etc) A potential customer in Ireland is
interested so I need to add formatting for Republic of Ireland phone
numbers.

Does anyone know of similar formats/rules for Irish phone numbers?

Thanks
Colum Mylod
2005-11-30 14:58:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orson Kart
Hello
My TAPI enabled software formats the CLI number according to the prefix
(08x, 07x, 020x, 011x 01x etc) A potential customer in Ireland is
interested so I need to add formatting for Republic of Ireland phone
numbers.
Does anyone know of similar formats/rules for Irish phone numbers?
It's reasonably consistent but number lengths vary from 5 to 7 digit.

01 + 7D (Dublin)
0700 + 6D ("personal")
0818 + 6D (damn "national rate from anywhere")
0xx +7D max, but could be 6D or 5D. 5D being migrated to 7D but
earlier 5D migrations were to 6D, e.g Waterford. Generally the first x
is 2-9, second x is 1-9.

One migration proves the exception with an x of 0:
090 + 7D (Athlone area, wider than Athlone taking in Mayo, Athlone
goes from 0902 + 5D to 090 + 7D, odd eh!)

Legacy, being phased out but still possible:
0x0x + 5D
Most of those are already migrated to 0xx + 7D. e.g Carlow 0503 + 5D
is now 059 + 7D.

You might see CLIs from non-geos?
15xx + 6D premium rate nos
18xx + 6D free to local rate
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Orson Kart
2005-11-30 15:55:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colum Mylod
It's reasonably consistent but number lengths vary from 5 to 7 digit.
Thank you Colum, that's most helpful.
Alex Monro
2005-11-30 16:42:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Orson Kart
Post by Colum Mylod
It's reasonably consistent but number lengths vary from 5 to 7 digit.
Thank you Colum, that's most helpful.
Checking addressbook for my friends in Ireland, it looks as though most /
all mobiles are 08x + 7d, for values of x atleast [57].
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Colum Mylod
2005-11-30 18:31:06 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:42:54 +0000, Alex Monro
Post by Alex Monro
Checking addressbook for my friends in Ireland, it looks as though most /
all mobiles are 08x + 7d, for values of x atleast [57].
08x indeed. 88 was the old analogue net for Eircell (now O2), 87 is
their GSM. 86 is Vodafone, formerly Esat. 85 is Meteor. Is "3" 83 now?

Beware for number lengths that mobile voicemails are of the form

08x 5 + 7D

i.e. the sub's number with a 5 between code and number. This exception
is the maximum number length = 13 digits (+353 8x 5 abc defg).

There are no codes beginning with 3 as this was reserved for short
codes to Britain (and for premium rate nos for a short time).
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John Diamond
2005-12-01 13:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colum Mylod
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:42:54 +0000, Alex Monro
08x indeed. 88 was the old analogue net for Eircell (now O2),
87 is
their GSM.
Now Vodafone
Post by Colum Mylod
86 is Vodafone, formerly Esat. 85 is Meteor. Is "3" 83 now?
02 was formerly Esat Digifone


There is number portablility, so subscribers can now change networks
without losing their number.
jd
obsidian
2005-11-30 20:48:32 UTC
Permalink
The Irish regulator has the information you need.
http://www.comreg.ie/numbering/num_nat_num_search.asp

Also note that some renumbering will be taking place in 2006.
--
obsidian
Post by Orson Kart
Hello
My TAPI enabled software formats the CLI number according to the prefix
(08x, 07x, 020x, 011x 01x etc) A potential customer in Ireland is
interested so I need to add formatting for Republic of Ireland phone
numbers.
Does anyone know of similar formats/rules for Irish phone numbers?
Thanks
Colum Mylod
2005-12-01 12:37:57 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:48:32 +0100, "obsidian"
Post by obsidian
The Irish regulator has the information you need.
http://www.comreg.ie/numbering/num_nat_num_search.asp
Also note that some renumbering will be taking place in 2006.
The main number change page
http://www.comreg.ie/sector/default.asp?S=4&NavID=55&M=False is
misleading, implying that 2003 changes were complete and that was that
(shades of Oftel's phoneyday done & dusted claim?). Eventually found
http://www.comreg.ie/numberchange/index.asp - they're combining codes
in 2 regions. Shame: the recoding for Wexford will forever eliminate a
potential number in Rosslare: +353 53 53 535 :-)
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j***@ntlworld.co.uk
2005-12-05 20:52:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colum Mylod
they're combining codes
in 2 regions. Shame: the recoding for Wexford will forever eliminate a
potential number in Rosslare: +353 53 53 535 :-)
It really is unecessary for the Irish Republic to introduce 7 figure
numbers (apart from Dublin and Cork).
Apart from recent changes the numbering scheme has been quite
stable, they only need to go from 5 to 6 digits with no code change
(and then only when the extra capacity is needed). 7 (or now 8) figures
are not needed in the far more densley populated UK for all but the
largest towns.
I have always been of the view that the original STD numbering
scheme in ROI was beautiful in its simplicity.
Colum Mylod
2005-12-06 10:29:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@ntlworld.co.uk
It really is unecessary for the Irish Republic to introduce 7 figure
numbers (apart from Dublin and Cork).
The regulator is being over-cautious on the one hand: these changes
will see off any future changes. Their stats can eventually be found
on that .doc/.pdf infested web site; the approach is going to result
in stability, with the exceptions of Dublin (they think 8 digits might
be necessary) and mobile (I think they've underestimated the potential
impact of demand for numbers for devices etc).

On the other hand the UK example has been very poor, as indeed has the
French dramatic 2-step approach.
Post by j***@ntlworld.co.uk
I have always been of the view that the original STD numbering
scheme in ROI was beautiful in its simplicity.
In fact it's a mix of 2 different policies[1]. Initial one was a copy
of the British system: 1, 21, 41, 51, 61, 71, 91 and other original
areas were very large; later ones followed the Dutch tiddly code
sizes: Arklow, Wicklow, Gorey, Athlone etc are all later small areas.
The inequality between Dublin's local call area and the sizes in the
west was appalling. Comreg etc begun to equalise the areas, and now
eliminate the 40x/50x anomalies. Quite why Athlone's total number
length (3 + 5) exceeded Dublin's (1+6) for years is inexplicable.

At least P&T didn't follow the bad precedent in the UK of alphabetic
code ordering, The current changes could not take place if that bad
mistake had been copied.

[1] An old on-line chum sent me a booklet explaining the design of the
Irish system. Indeed initial design was to copy the Post Office design
in Britain. A Dutch consultant invaded and contributed the later
longer codes/smaller areas. That lasted decades. Must dig up the
booklet.
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j***@ntlworld.co.uk
2005-12-09 18:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colum Mylod
In fact it's a mix of 2 different policies[1]. Initial one was a copy
Thank you for an interesting reply. My interpretation of the situation
(without the benefit of the booklet you refer to) is slightly
different.
Post by Colum Mylod
Initial one was a copy of the British system: 1, 21, 41, 51, 61, 71, 91
I think this is more apparent than real. 021, 031, 041 etc bear no
relation to the location of the place concerned in the UK. The UK has a
large and complex network of routings and adopted a scheme using full
translation, therefore the code allocated (originally on an
alphanumeric basis similar to the then Director areas) was totally
divorced from the geographic location or routing of the call.

The Irish Republic who have a much simpler network adopted what is
known as the "Decade" numbering system. In this case the country is
divided up into up into areas (01, 02 - 09 etc) which are then further
subdivided (021, 022, etc). This works for a small country such as the
ROI with a small number of major trunk exchanges and routings between
them but was considered and rejected for Britain because it was
considered too inflexible for future network changes and the complexity
of equipment needed to work out direct or non-standard routings which
did not match the network hierarchy inherent in the numbering scheme
was such that it offered no advantage over a fully flexible scheme
using full translation.
On the other hand the Irish network is relatively simple with a
small number of trunk zone centres:

01 Dublin
02 Cork
03 reserved for direct dial calls to mainland GB
04 Drogheda
040 Arklow
050 Portlaiose
05 Waterford
06 Limerick
07 Sligo
08 reserved for direct dial calls to Northern Ireland
09 Galway
090 Athlone

these areas are then further subdivided, so giving rise to 0402, 0502,
0902 etc being the areas served by the switching centres at Arklow,
Portlaiose and Athlone. I assume this was attractive as the routing
table would have been relatively simple and may have been chosen to
minimise the use of expensive routing and translation equipment. In
theory, if a call is either routed direct of circulates via the zone
centres which are all interconnected, call routing is very simple
indeed (I suspect the practice was probably not quite as simple!).
Post by Colum Mylod
and other original areas were very large; later ones followed the Dutch tiddly code sizes: Arklow, Wicklow, Gorey, Athlone etc are all later small areas The > inequality between Dublin's local call area and the sizes in the west was appalling.
I think this was more in the nature of population and telephone
distribution, the same is true of the large Director areas in this
country. 021, 041, 051 etc in Ireland are the areas served by the local
exchange and do not cover the whole 02, 04, 05 areas etc. I think the
Irish planned in the basis of an approx 12.5 mile circle from the main
exchange.
Post by Colum Mylod
Comreg etc begun to equalise the areas, and now eliminate the 40x/50x anomalies.
Some years ago when the network was fully digital and local call
charging was introduced they changed from a local call being a call to
your code only to it being a call also to nearby exchanges in adjacent
STD areas (not necessarily the whole of the adjacent code area) so
local call charging is divorced from STD code area so equalisation of
areas for technical or growth reasons is not a factor.
Post by Colum Mylod
Quite why Athlone's total number length (3 + 5) exceeded Dublin's (1+6) for years is inexplicable.
Not so in the light of the above. It was often the case that the
capital city was allocated a short, memorable code (this also allowed
for expansion at a later date). Athlone was 0902 as it was a
subdivision of the 090 (Athlone trunk exchange area) and local numbers
contained 5 digits (it was 4 originally IIRC)
Post by Colum Mylod
[1] An old on-line chum sent me a booklet explaining the design of the
Irish system. Indeed initial design was to copy the Post Office design
in Britain. A Dutch consultant invaded and contributed the later
longer codes/smaller areas. That lasted decades. Must dig up the
booklet.
I would be very interested to see a copy. Perhaps you could post the
salent points. I would also be happy to pay photocopy, P&P costs if
this were amenable to you (or indeed purchase the booklet).

Apologies for the long post. I hope it stimulates some discussion!

John
Colum Mylod
2005-12-11 21:48:55 UTC
Permalink
On 9 Dec 2005 10:27:33 -0800, ***@ntlworld.co.uk wrote:
[good stuff snipped]
Post by j***@ntlworld.co.uk
The Irish Republic who have a much simpler network adopted what is
known as the "Decade" numbering system. In this case the country is
divided up into up into areas (01, 02 - 09 etc) which are then further
subdivided (021, 022, etc). This works for a small country such as the
ROI with a small number of major trunk exchanges and routings between
them but was considered and rejected for Britain because it was
considered too inflexible for future network changes
I wonder at this interpretation. I'm not doubting your stance but from
lurking here reading lots, would it be maybe more true to say that the
GB system was one of the first to be implemented and its alphabetic
ordering was good for its time when people asked the operator for
exchange+ number, leading on to exchange to code mapping; whereas the
ROI setup could go geographic? Bear in mind that e.g. Germany also
took a geo ordering for its codes so it's not a size of country issue.

...
Post by j***@ntlworld.co.uk
I think this was more in the nature of population and telephone
distribution, the same is true of the large Director areas in this
country. 021, 041, 051 etc in Ireland are the areas served by the local
exchange and do not cover the whole 02, 04, 05 areas etc. I think the
Irish planned in the basis of an approx 12.5 mile circle from the main
exchange.
The person I discussed this had done some research and it appears that
the original Irish system was based on one number for the Guards, one
for the priest's house and one for the doctor. They did not anticipate
a relatively (for the time) huge take up by commerce. The initial
codes were large but they (P&T) took fright (his words) at the large
area codes in use initially (Dublin/Cork/Limerick/Waterford, the
original largest population areas) and shrunk the areas in a later
phase. I can't show evidence for this but his booklet did give names
for the various plans: the original one was indeed based on British
London/B/EH/G/L/M copies, the later on the 4-digit Dutch scheme. But
as you say, the regional structure did not follow the British example
which now allows area code consolidation (as did the NL basis in
1997).
Post by j***@ntlworld.co.uk
Some years ago when the network was fully digital and local call
charging was introduced they changed from a local call being a call to
your code only to it being a call also to nearby exchanges in adjacent
STD areas (not necessarily the whole of the adjacent code area) so
local call charging is divorced from STD code area so equalisation of
areas for technical or growth reasons is not a factor.
Yes, the various rural TDs did get their way since the rural
electorate does have a relatively larger say.
Post by j***@ntlworld.co.uk
Post by Colum Mylod
Quite why Athlone's total number length (3 + 5) exceeded Dublin's (1+6) for years is inexplicable.
Not so in the light of the above. It was often the case that the
capital city was allocated a short, memorable code (this also allowed
for expansion at a later date). Athlone was 0902 as it was a
subdivision of the 090 (Athlone trunk exchange area) and local numbers
contained 5 digits (it was 4 originally IIRC)
I don't think expansion was a factor. Dublin was 6 digit into the
1990s. That was a copy of over-the-water layouts, and the mix of GB-NL
planning. Comreg is busy undoing the anomalies.
Post by j***@ntlworld.co.uk
Post by Colum Mylod
[1] An old on-line chum sent me a booklet explaining the design of the
Irish system. Indeed initial design was to copy the Post Office design
in Britain. A Dutch consultant invaded and contributed the later
longer codes/smaller areas. That lasted decades. Must dig up the
booklet.
I would be very interested to see a copy. Perhaps you could post the
salent points. I would also be happy to pay photocopy, P&P costs if
this were amenable to you (or indeed purchase the booklet).
When I raid the storage boxes I'd be glad to scan it in and host it.
It's not very technical but aimed at the type of people who might have
been dragged through a telecoms museum. I'll have to dig it up now
that I've made reference to it!
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Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor
2005-12-15 12:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@ntlworld.co.uk
03 reserved for direct dial calls to mainland GB
How does this work ? Can people in the ROI dial e.g.
a Milton Keynes number by dialing 031908 ... something ?
or is it more complex than that ?

Does the 0044 mechanism work
from ROI to GB ?

How are calls from ROI to The Six Counties dialed ?
Richard [in PE12]
Colum Mylod
2005-12-15 16:58:03 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 12:27:38 +0000, "Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor"
Post by Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor
Post by j***@ntlworld.co.uk
03 reserved for direct dial calls to mainland GB
How does this work ? Can people in the ROI dial e.g.
a Milton Keynes number by dialing 031908 ... something ?
or is it more complex than that ?
Well first of all that last bit should read "calls to GB" as there's
no distinction for calls to the Shetlands or Orkney.. It *was* the
case that you dialled as 2 groups:

03x for calls to 0x/0x1 i.e. London 031, Edinburgh 033 (yes!), for x
between 1 and 6 inclusive (not sure about Tyneside but London's 71 &
81 did not become 037/8).

030 for the rest: Bournemouth 030202. That came in much later, for
years it was dial 10 for the operator to connect. Excuse was the
complexity of routing calls as the codes were all over the place - so
said the P&T operator to me once when questioned why 6 cities were
directly diallable.

This system was confusing since anyone seeing London as 031 would, and
did, assume Bristol could be 03272 but it was 030272. That is 0 3 0 +
national (significant) code. There must have been plenty of calls
misdialled to the big 5 excluding London as its leading number was
unique.

Belfast 0232 was dialled as 084. Apparently this was a cute setup as
Belfast's dependent exchanges (9+ ones) had codes that lined up the
same when dialled from both sides of the border for some exchanges
(0849something) but I don't have the exact details to hand.

Rest of NI 080 + nat (sig.) code, Strabane 080 504. That could be
dialled from NL as +353 80 504... The things people get up to testing
when left idle.
Post by Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor
Does the 0044 mechanism work
from ROI to GB ?
Works but could be charged at a higher rate, i.e. above inland. This
has happened and the relevant telcos have shrugged shoulders. All NI
is UK 028 = ROI 048. Fits in with the 04x geo region, and 028 is in
use in the SW.
Post by Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor
How are calls from ROI to The Six Counties dialed ?
Richard [in PE12]
048 or 00 44 28. Reverse direction is +353 at inland rates.

Similar short codes have been used in other countries (not to forget
000x from GB to ROI, 000x and 001x from NI to ROI): Mexico to the US
for one (and vice versa).
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